This automatically-generated transcript is taken from the IT Pro Podcast episode ‘Intel vs AMD’. To listen to the full episode, click here. We apologise for any errors.
Adam Shepherd
Hello, I'm Adam Shepherd.
Carly Page
And I'm Carly Page.
Adam
You're listening to the IT Pro Podcast where this week we're talking about one of the most storied rivalries in tech history.
Carly
Like Coke and Pepsi, or Marvel and DC, AMD and Intel have been duking it out for decades, each battling to take the crown in the processor market. For a long time, Intel's lead on its sparring partner was virtually unassailable. But a shake up of AMD's strategy in 2016 catapulted it back into the race with the launch of its Zen microarchitecture, which bought massive multi threaded performance at an affordable price.
Adam
Since then, AMD has been making great strides, landing a series of bruising blows, while Intel has struggled to maintain its dominance. Things may be changing once again, however; with the launch of new architecture generations from both companies on the horizon, the fight between Intel and AMD is looking more closely matched than ever.
Carly
Joining us this week to discuss the latest announcements from the two vendors, snd what the outcome of this bout could mean for corporate IT buyers, is Sherri L. Smith, Editor in Chief of our sister brand Laptop Mag, and co-host of the Noise Cancelling podcast. Sherri, thanks for chatting to us.
Sherri L. Smith
Thank you for having me.
Adam
So as we're recording this, CES 2021 is in full swing in Las Vegas. While it's a bit different this year, we've seen the usual slew of tech announcements coming out of it. So Sherri, what do you think of the show this year?
Sherri
Well, number one, CES is my favourite show ever. But this, this isn't CES, I can't stand it, I want to, I want to be on the show floor. This is the second year we haven't been able to do so. But of course, better healthy and safe than sorry. So um, you know, you suck it up and you make do with what you have. But what I miss about being on the show floor is like, you're walking around, you're you're looking, you're a little frazzled. And then you see out of the corner of your eye, like this niche product, or this niche company, and like they have this weird or kooky or innovative piece of new tech that you get to cover and break. So that's the part that I'm really missing. And then of course, seeing everybody and touching all the new toys.
Carly
I agree.
Adam
I must admit, Razer's Project Sophia kind of modular gaming desk is the one that I've been particularly taken with this year. I I know it's almost certainly never going to be an actual thing. But my God do I want one.
Carly
Among the news to come out of CES this year has been major announcements from both AMD and Intel. So let's talk about Intel first, what can you tell us about the new 12th generation chips that have been unveiled?
Sherri
Well, they like right now, Intel has said a lot; there's a lot to say about Intel. Number one the the 12th-gen chips are coming. As usual, they're supposed to be more powerful than last generation. How much so we shall see once we get real world testing going, but you know, Intel is selling us the moon right now and I I like to, I like to travel, I would like to imagine myself as an astronaut, so right now I'm going to buy the bill of goods until we actually get our hands on a laptop or two. The 12th Gen is codenamed Alder Lake. And, like we do have a variety of wattages, so you have 28 Watts which I'm really, really - I really want to get my hands on that because it's going to be in some of the major flagships this year, including the new Dell XPS 13 Plus that is... that thing is going, design wise, that thing is really doing it for me. I do realise that it's going to be polarising for some, but if Intel can carry through on its bill of goods, I think people are going to overlook the omissions and the new brand new look as long as the performance can carry the day.
Carly
Have they said it's faster than Apple's M1 Max chip? Which, that's a pretty bold claim. Right?
Sherri
That's that's a bold claim. And that's, that's a bold strategy Cotton. Let's see if it works out for them. I I'm going to, again, I'm gonna reserve judgement until we get real real world testing because I mean, like, I mean, I could tell you that I'm six foot one and I like it, and I, you know, when I blink, diamonds come out of nowhere. Is it true? Not necessarily. These are things I'd like to think. But um, that's a lofty claim, like I would be more concerned with keeping up with AMD right now more than I would give up with Apple.
Adam
It's worth noting that the 12th Gen chips are a bit of a departure for Intel in that they're going after more of a kind of big-little architecture, right? So they've got the P cores for performance and for kind of grunt, and then they've got E cores for efficiency and more kind of low level background stuff. So that's kind of that that's a pretty notable departure from their kind of previous engineering strategy, right?
Sherri
Absolutely. Um, and, like, they're still struggling to get it, get it smaller.
Adam
What nanometer are they on now? Because they were stuck on 14 nanometer for a long time.
Sherri
Yeah, we're on 10. Like, meanwhile, AMD is like 'so six?'. And and I forgot what Apple is on I escapes me right now.
Adam
It's five nanometer, I believe.
Carly
I think Apple's five, yeah.
Sherri
But yeah, yeah. So it's just like that. And so we're still having that problem. And that's, that's where Intel's problems really started. Like, once AMD started catching up, Intel had been promising a new, like a smaller nanometre chip for a while and they could not get past 14. Like, and they start dipping their toes into 10. But in order to give you performance, like H-series and things of that nature, they had they were stuck on 14. And then AMD came out the box first, AMD came out the box on the desktop front with Threadripper, which is such a fun word to say. Threadripper! The best! The best. And it's such a fun word to say; Threadripper! Threadripper!
Adam
It is, and It's so evocative as well, you know, especially compared to kind of Intel's naming conventions, you know, like, Cannon Lake and Skylake and Broadwell and Haswell. And then you've got Epyc and Threadripper, which is it's, it's just the right side of kind of that that really kind of slightly cringe gamery-type stuff. But you got to admit it captures your attention a lot rather than what Intel goes for.
Sherri
Absolutely. And that and like that's, that's where AMD started, finally started turning it around. Because for a while, for a long while, everyone kind of looked at AMD like okay, that's where you go when you don't have a lot of money to spend and you want something.
Adam
Yeah.
Sherri
And now it's like, Oh no, this is where you go, like AMD, especially on the mobile front. The Advantage systems, which is all AMD everything. A perfect example is the Asus ROG Zephyrus G14 and G15, gave us some of the longest battery life that we've seen on a gaming laptop running our our unique test, I think it was over, it was absolutely over 10 hours, but that's unheard of for a gaming laptop. Before that six hours was the, was the outlier, and the norm was typically about two to three hours depending on what processor it was. And AMD didn't stop there with the battery life. They also showed up when it came to performance in many of our best benchmark tests, they were either going toe to toe if not dominating the Intel-based systems.
Adam
I remember the the first couple of Zen 2 laptops that we got in for review back in the day when they were first kind of coming out. I remember running our benchmarks like three or four times because I was, I was sure that there must have been some kind of problem because they were getting like 40 and 50% higher scores than, you know, than what we were expecting. You know, compared to Intel based systems. It was crazy.
Sherri
Absolutely. We had gotten so used to only seeing AMD in cheaper systems. Like the Acer nitro series. Great line but really known for entry to mid level gamers and not known for really giving you that punch of power that you want if you're want to play a really taxing triple-A title and then all of a sudden you get this and you're like what? This is AMD? Oh - this is AMD. And they just came out with laptop after laptop, and it wasn't a fluke. So now it's expected, when I hear that I'm getting an all AMD system, I'm expecting a level of performance that I would expect out of a $2,000, $3,000 system. And to that point, AMD is teaming with, with OEMs and somehow doing it a little bit cheaper than Intel and Nvidia.
Adam
Yeah. And this, this was one of the big advantages that AMD had when it kind of was back in 2016, when it kind of really revamped its its kind of strategy and launched the Zen microarchitecture. And they were kind of starting from the back foot. Because up until that point, for years and years and years, it was a one horse race, you know, it was Intel all the way, as you mentioned, you know, unless you were really seriously cash strapped, you went with an Intel system, it's what all of the laptops had, all of the pre built systems had basically by default. So when they started to kind of reforge those OEM relationships, it took a long time before OEMs kind of came around to the idea that AMD based systems would be viable options for kind of the mass market. And it was the multi core performance and the kind of cost effectiveness of that multi core performance that I think really sold it because you were getting the you know, for equivalent levels of multicore performance, you were paying maybe $100 to $200 less on an AMD System, which was really compelling I think for a lot of people.
Carly
Absolutely. Okay, so let's move on to what AMD has announced at CES this year. Am I right in thinking they've announced their Zen 4 architecture at this year's show?
Sherri
So yes, AMD did announce Zen 4, codenamed Raphael for right now. My favourite ninja turtle.
Adam
Excellent choice.
Carly
They are so good with names. They are so good with names.
Sherri
But um, they like like that's coming the second part of the year, like right now they're focusing on Zen, Zen 3+. So you know, little confusion there, like, bound to happen, but um, think of it as Ryzen 6000, 5 nanometer chips, processors, and GPUs, and of course, again, just like, just like Intel, AMD is promising bigger performance, better endurance. And I mean when it comes, now that AMD has set down such a good track record, I really do believe them, like I'm excited to run our battery tests on the like the Alienware X17, no, actually M17, Advantage edition which is going to be all top-of-the-line AMD from the display is going to have FreeSync Premium, to the, to the processor, AMD processor, AMD Ryzen GPU, all AMD, AMD everything, I'm excited to see what that battery life is going to be. I'm excited to see what the performance is going to be because AMD has not done a fail in a long time. So like it's an exciting feeling to actually have competition in the market instead of like oh well we're comparing an Intel against an Intel or Nvidia against an Nvidia. Let's see how it goes. Like, like it's fun to have actual competition which is why it was also impressive that Apple came out of the box with their own silicon, it was like hey, we're just we're going to do us, we're gonna do it better than everybody. It like, it makes you look at Intel. It's like okay you guys, you really sat on your laurels, you got you got very very comfortable.
Adam
Yes.
Sherri
And I was, it was so funny. I would joke with a few laptop OEMs, like one of these days, we're gonna be sitting here talking about AMD making a comeback and who knows, ARM might even get in the game. And look where we are! Who knew that I was Nostradamus, here I am. Give me money. Someone let me choose the lottery tickets, something.
Carly
It's not just the gaming manufacturers that are sort of putting Intel to one side and going with AMD, which is quite unusual, really. I think I had a press release through from Lenovo. And they've announced new ThinkPad devices which typically are sort of for corporate business use, and they've gone with AMD, which, that can't be good for Intel right?
Sherri
That can not. But absolutely, it is absolutely good for Lenovo. The laptop series in question is a whole new line. It's called the ThinkPad Z13. It's, it's targeting - ooh is right. The thing is sexy. Lenovo actually was gracious enough to come to New York and show us some of the new things that they have coming out. The big thing about the Z13, well, there's a lot of big things. Number one, it's all AMD. Number two, it is working on the environmentally conscious tip. So you have two choices. You can get an all aluminium one where the all all the aluminium, 70% of it is recycled. And another one that has a vegan leather lid. And that thing is just sexy. It looks good. It just it's a beautiful, they're both beautiful laptops. Again, going back to the hybrid worker piece. Lenovo really went in on the cameras so you got a full HD camera. You got, it's a Windows Hello compatible. So it's got an IR camera webcam in there, all the privacy shutters and all the all the bells and whistles that you want in a ThinkPad but without paying ThinkPad money because if I remember correctly, I think the Z13, it starts at I want to say $1,399. But don't hold me to that; it's somewhere around there. But it's a, it's a relatively affordable price.
Adam
Yeah, it's $1,549, I believe, USD, that that starts at, so yeah, very, very affordable by traditional kind of ThinkPad standards. And I think that's something that is going to be a hallmark of kind of AMD based laptops, they are going to be much more affordable for you know, compared to compared to their Intel based counterparts for both kind of businesses, and consumers. So I, I think it's worth at this point, kind of taking a step back to look at how we kind of got to this position. So I mean, we've talked a bit already about the, the engineering rut that Intel had itself stuck in for a while, you know, the problems it had moving from 14 nanometer to 10 nanometer, The fact that it was, as you pointed out, resting on its laurels kind of as a as a company for so long. One of the things that I think was really, for me was really instrumental in AMD kind of turning itself around, was putting Dr. Lisa Su, in the top spot, Lisa Su, for anyone who isn't familiar, now CEO of AMD, but spent a long time as kind of a research engineer in you know, inside the kind of bowels of the company, you know, at the coalface of working on these chips. And having an engineer at the helm, I think has, you know, demonstrably shown that that it makes a big difference to how well you can iterate and how quickly you can iterate on your designs. And the fact that Intel is starting to catch up to AMD again and you know, starting to get the wheels in motion in terms of innovation and engineering; the fact that they bought Pat Gelsinger back in as CEO kind of tallies quite nicely with that for me.
Sherri
I mean, honestly, I had to look up who Pat was like, he just doesn't have the cache that Dr. Lisa Su has or like, when I, when I think CEOs I think, I think Dr. Lisa, I think she like there's there is no bigger compliment than someone coming out and bringing you an action figure of yourself during your keynote. That will forever stay with me. Or like Jensen over at Nvidia. That man, I've never seen him without that black leather jacket, like these are the people that I think of when I think CEO, like I think like there's just a charisma or or je ne sais quoi, shall we say, that, that they bring to the table and I just don't get that with Intel. It's just very it's very staid and buttoned up over there, and it shows.
Adam
I would definitely agree that Intel is very kind of buttoned up, especially over the last kind of decade or so, one of, for me, one of Intel's biggest problems is that for the last kind of five to 10 years, they've had business people running the company, rather than engineers. Where Gelsinger differs for me, is Gelsinger is an engineer to his bones. So for anyone that's not familiar, Pat Gelsigner, most recently was CEO of VMware, and has kind of led that company to great kind of strengths. VMware made a lot of really interesting moves and developments in the kind of enterprise technology space. But before that, he was Intel's very first CTO, he founded the Intel Developer Forum conference, he kind of led a lot of the really, really key developments in terms of what we think of as modern processors. So you know, Wi-Fi, USB, the Xeon range, the Intel Core range, were all kind of launched and masterminded under his kind of tenure as CTO. And he's, he's been an engineer, and he's been involved in engineering for his entire career. And he, he really gets the kind of challenges I think, and the the ways in which organisations can can approach them. And I think that is going to have a real, a real noticeable impact on Intel's strategy going forward.
Sherri
I would hope, I really hope so. Because at this point in the game, Intel needs some wins. Yeah, barbarians are at the gate. Actually, the barbarians have crashed the gate, they are busy looting and pillaging. And walking away with Intel's market share. So they really, really, really need some serious wins. And again, like while it would be nice to try to go after Apple, they need to stave off AMD before they start trying to look at Apple.
Adam
Yeah, they have bigger fish to fry at the moment, but I think they are successfully frying them. So we have had our first 12th Gen system in for review. The review should be live on the site by the time this goes out. I will link it in the show notes. It is a workstation from Wired2Fire, which is based on the Core i9-12900K chip; it's one of their top end kind of unlocked workstation chips going up against the Ryzen 9 5950X is probably the most kind of the closest comparison, and it is going toe to toe with it. It's it is kind of equaling it on performance in kind of most tests, and it's not that much more expensive. The price differential is not as much as it was. And you can see the the kind of new Big Little architecture really starting to kind of help level out that that kind of disparity. And, we can't really call it on the strength of one product just yet, but it's a it's a promising indication that Intel might be kind of getting back into shape as it were.
Sherri
So wait, 12th Gen is going toe to toe with last gen AMD?
Adam
Yeah. How it compares against the…
Sherri
Like, so we have, we have yet to see what AMD does, but it's only it's it's it's neck and neck with last gen AMD.
Adam
It's neck and neck with the kind of top of the line last gen AMD stuff. But having said that, there is, like, the the disparity was previously even greater than that. Before that they were like, what, a generation or two behind in terms of performance? I mean, the Dell XPS 13 from last year or the year before I think; for AMD systems we were seeing scores of kind of up up around the kind of 200 mark from AMD systems and this kind of top of the line flagship, you know, best part of two grand ticket price with a top of the line Intel chip was I think not even breaking 100. So the fact that it's kind of quote unquote only a generation behind while you know Intel isn't out of the woods by any stretch of the imagination, for me that is an indication that they're starting to pick up steam again.
Sherri
Can you hear this? This is the sound of AMD demanding Intel's lunch money right now. I that that does not like, while that is encouraging, that does, that's not boding well, for Intel. Oh, no. Oh, no.
Carly
The next question I had down to ask was if this 12th generation series lineup pays off for Intel, if if they do manage to sort of beat AMD out on performance, which, given what Adam's just said seems quite unlikely, could we ever return to sort of a time where there is only one sort of game in town, where Intel sort of retains the lead and becomes dominant again? I mean, I think from what Adam's saying based on those review scores, I think I think that would be unlikely and especially now there's other players joining this race such as Apple.
Sherri
I don't think it's likely, I don't think it's in the cards for Intel - Nostradamus 2022 has spoken - and nor should it be. Like, like it was so boring, like laptop after laptop, like Intel. Nvidia. Intel. Nvidia. Like, competition is good, it's healthy. It drives innovation. Everyone wins when there's competition, especially the consumer. Like like I want the most powerful thing that you can give me. Sir, please sir, can I have some more? More power? Yes, more power! So like I want, I want Intel to feel threatened and I want, I want AMD to keep pushing, I want them to go after Apple. I want everybody, I want everybody to go after Apple at this point, because they're the, they're the the company to catch up with but like and also watch your backs because God, who knows. Who knows, Qualcomm might make a play next in the next few years like that, like they're, Qualcomm is um, you do see them in some laptops. But typically when you see a Qualcomm system, it's really focused on battery life so you're not going for power...
Adam
It's for extreme mobility.
Sherri
Exactly, you're going for, but who knows, who knows, they might crack the code, they might, you know, find the philosopher's stone and just sprinkle a little bit of razzle dazzle on there and just blow, and just take us by surprise because who knew that in 2022 that we will be having this conversation; back in 2018, we would all fall, hahahaha, and now here we are. So anything is possible when there's healthy competition.
Adam
So just on that subject, so Nvidia's proposed acquisition of ARM is still under review. It hasn't hasn't had approval yet. We're still waiting on a number of kind of agencies to sign off on that. If that does go through, do you think next year we could potentially be looking at Nvidia joining the race as a direct competitor to the likes of AMD and Intel?
Sherri
God I hope so. Like I like i don't know I, I'm just a chaos agent like, anarchy, anarchy; anarchy! But I think, I think it would be a couple of years before Nvidia was like hey we are making an Nvidia processor. I think they will really want to get a feel for what ARM is doing, really get get a handle on it because Nvidia does not want to, and Nvidia was the new kid on the block once upon a time, we forget that. They they've become such a standard that we forget that there was a time when everyone's like Nvidia. Nvidia? Like just mispronouncing the name, just all like, they've become that much of a standby. I don't think that they will want to enter that arena without looking at every nook and cranny, because they do not want to come out and flop.
Adam
Yeah, it's also worth bearing in mind, of course, that the consumer market has never been a direct priority for Nvidia. Nvidia has always, you know, from the very first days of it's foundation, as we covered in our profile of Nvidia on this podcast last year, from the very first days of its foundation, Nvidia has been focused on kind of enterprise and B2B stuff - and R&D, particularly - and has used its kind of consumer portfolio to drive that forward and to fuel its kind of income and cash flow reserves, and then fed that back back into things like AI and machine learning and distributed computing and all of that good stuff, which we've, which we've talked our listeners ears off at length about.
Sherri
What's interesting about it, like, I had a conversation with a few AMD execs yesterday, because 'tis the season; CES. And something that like, something that was we discussed was the future. Like, yeah, it's good to talk about the future. But we've been talking about the future for a while now. Like, where, where are the cars? Where are the, where are all the things that we've been promised? Like, like honestly, I live in the year 2022 now; where is my flying car? Where are my hover boots?
Adam
Where is my jetpack?
Sherri
Yeah, all of these things. And like what AMD impressed upon me is that they are focused on the future as now, like what they're giving you is now tech, not future tech. Yes, it's nice to talk about the future. And yes, of course, they have future plans, but they're really focused on giving you, working with you in the now. And it really shows with the level of processors and GPUs that they've been giving, whether it's on desktop or mobile.
Adam
So what does all of this mean, for IT departments who may be looking at refreshing their hardware over the coming year, you know, buying in new laptops, replacing older kind of desktops or, you know, potentially even thin client devices? You know, will we see, for example, more organisations starting to move over to AMD, particularly now, that kind of reliance on x86 based, you know, desktop programmes is kind of starting to be kind of phased out in favour of more cloud and SaaS stuff, you know, will we, will we see Intel losing more of that business share, so you think?
Sherri
Um, I think it's, I think the ball is in AMD's court, it really is going to come down to what security features that they have, because pretty much everyone is familiar with Intel vPro. Where AMD has consistently dropped the ball is telling the AMD story. So like, I like, something that I'm going to be working on on Laptop this year is doing basically decoder ring stories. So what is AMD Advantage? What is, what is, what is Freesync and what is Freesync versus Freesync Premium versus G Sync. So like really, so I am not as well versed in AMD security features as I am in TPM, and vPro. And that's the story that's going to have to be told. And of course, that means tonnes of face offs, which, which are always fun. I'm weighing the pros and cons and I'm excited to start telling those stories because again, competition is good, but I don't think that there's going to be mass market like, um, enterprise adoption until the industry is more knowledgeable about what AMD has to offer on the enterprise front.
Adam
Yeah. And I think that goes back to you know, what we were saying around the advantage that Intel had from being the biggest name in town for so long. Everyone in enterprise IT and indeed in you know, technology and computing in general is familiar with things like the Intel Core lineup, Intel vPro, all of these kind of related technologies. AMD, so AMD's equivalent to vPro is AMD Pro, and has, you know, most of the same things, you know, secure boot, firmware based TPM, you know, number randomizers, all of those kinds of security gubbins that you need to prevent hardware based attacks, but because they're still comparatively new compared to where, you know, Intel has had such a huge dominant footprint, they do need to put in a lot more legwork in terms of getting people familiar with it, which I think is going to be their biggest struggle.
Sherri
I absolutely agree. But, again, it's gonna be, it's gonna be an interesting five years.
Adam
Yeah, I massively agree. And I think in particular, as you say, competition is good. And I think we've got more competition now than ever before, you know, particularly with Apple and with the kind of ARM based chips and the kind of Qualcomm based chips that are starting to come to the market. I think we're on the cusp of one of the most vibrant and diverse periods in computing R&D that we've ever seen.
Sherri
Absolutely.
Adam
The last question I had down is kind of fairly self evident. So the last question I had down was kind of based on current performance, who we think is coming out on top, but I think that's been pretty, pretty comprehensively proven.
Sherri
Like yet, like we are talking about the higher end chips, but we still have to think about like, the U, like the U series, and low power series. So like, there's still markets, there's still places where Intel can win. And, like, those haven't been tested yet. Like I look forward to testing every single processor that comes along, comes along our path. So I'm looking forward to seeing what the entire picture is. So right now, the picture is looking like, well, if you're looking at high end, then you're probably going to want to, you're going to try to want to try to find an AMD system. Now the thing about it, the other thing of note is, even though AMD is making these incredible gains, the OEMs have to be a little bit quicker on adoption. So right now, like I think Nvidia said they were coming out with, they're gonna be in 150 laptops this year, AMD is increasing its portfolio to I think 21 systems. So that like 150, 21, that's a big, that's a big differential. Um, I think that, um, like AMD is definitely poised to win, but they need the support of the OEMs. And I think another year of AMD serving Intel it's lunch is going to make that, going to be the push that OEMs need. Because now when I speak with a OEM, I do ask them, so are you working with AMD? Is there going to be an AMD system? Because it's like, you as a, as a service, as a vendor, you need to give your consumers every option available. So AMD is a viable option. It needs to be included.
Adam
Yeah, absolutely. Particularly since the launch of Ryzen APUs. The first kind of Ryzen chips that we started seeing came with no integrated graphics whatsoever. So you had to, OEMs had to pair them with a discrete graphics chips, which obviously for an OEM is an additional expense that they don't necessarily have to do with Intel, which has the integrated graphics on the chip and all the rest of it. But now that Ryzen APUs are kind of a a bigger part of the lineup for for AMD, it's, I would imagine, a lot more attractive for particularly smaller and more budget conscious OEMs, who are looking at kind of mid and low range systems. I can imagine that a lot of those kind of manufacturers are going to be looking at AMD as a bigger part of their 2022 portfolio.
Sherri
Absolutely. Like, the sky's the limit. Like at the end of the day, I, the consumer, am the winner. And that is all that matters.
Adam
Well, I'm afraid with that, that's all we've got time for on this week's show. But thanks once again to Sherri L. Smith from Laptop for joining us.
Sherri
Thank you for having me, it was an absolute pleasure. As we've talked about, we have at least 150 laptops to go through this year. And we are, we love being comprehensive so anything Intel, AMD, Apple, if Qualcomm comes through with a few systems, you name it, it will be on the site. So stay tuned for that. And all things mobile, so tablets, VR headsets, audio, like you never know where we're going to be but we will be there when we get there.
Adam
You can find links to all of the topics we've spoken about today in the show notes and even more on our website, itpro.co.uk.
Carly
You can also follow us on social media as well as subscribe to our daily newsletter. Don't forget to subscribe to the IT Pro Podcast wherever you find your podcasts. And if you're enjoying the show, please leave us a rating and a review.
Adam
We'll be back next week with more analysis from the world of IT. But until then, goodbye.
Carly
Bye.
